November 1981

[rosie_rues]

I've been doing a lot of preliminary work for a fic set late 1981/early 1982, and an odd thought occurred to me.

Why did the Lestranges go after the Longbottoms when they did? Why then? Why Frank and Alice?

I found myself wondering if it had anything to do with Sirius' apparent return to the fold. I have no doubt that Bellatrix and Sirius, both being wild, were close as children, a closeness which would have easily become hatred as Sirius turned away from the family. So, we come to late 1981. The Dark Lord is dead, and so are many of the Order, Bellatrix's immediate counterparts. Sirius is once again her favourite cousin, but he's already in Azkaban, brought down at what Bellatrix might consider his moment of glory.

It's easy to see why Bellatrix might want revenge, not just for Voldemort, but for Sirius. But why the Longbottoms?

We know Frank and Alice were highly respected aurors. We also know that Sirius was taken from the scene by Magical Law Enforcement (which seems to be mostly aurors - it isn't clear from book to book). As non-suspect members of the Order, they would probably have been on alert, especially once they ceased to be Voldemort's secondary target.

Did Frank and Alice arrest Sirius?

Comments

[ex-stateline124.livejournal.com]

i'm pretty sure that somewhere there's a clarification that the MLE has two factions: the aurors, and another group that's something of a SWAT team (errr, is that solely an american thing, though?). and that this other faction would have been the people to arrest sirius, and not aurors. which has always bothered me...

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

If I remember rightly (I may not - I'm weak on GoF) the word Auror isn't used until Mad-Eye Moody's first mention. Before that everyone's referred to as the MLE. In OotP it seems to just be a government department which includes everything from Auror HQ to Misuse of Muggle Artifacts (omigod - Arthur Weasley is Q!)

There seems to be some overlap between MLE hit wizards and the aurors' role as Dark Wizard catchers too. I'm never quite sure if those are two seperate groups or two names for the same thing.

I think JKR might have said something about it too, but I can't track it down.

[ex-stateline124.livejournal.com]

aha -- this from the lexicon, which apparently got the info from the "daily prophet" fanclub newsletters:

The Department of Magical Law Enforcement maintains squads of trained Hit Wizards whose job it is to capture dangerous wizarding criminals. A group of these Hit Wizards captured Sirius Black after he supposedly killed Peter Pettigrew. The Hit Wizards are not the same as Aurors. Hit Wizards, it would seem, are sent primarily against criminals while Aurors track down and capture Dark Wizards.

it also clarifies the training, which is obviously different from auror training:

The Magical Law Enforcement Squad asks for a minimum of five O.W.L.s, requiring Defence Against the Dark Arts. They require that applicants be over 17 years of age and "not of a nervous disposition".

Once accepted into the program, a Hit-Witch or Hit-Wizard trainee is taught (among other things):

* defensive charms and counter-curses
* how to restrain magical law-breakers without attracting Muggle attention

A trainee has a starting salary of 700 Galleons per month, a Ministry of Magic broomstick, and his or her own regular bed at St Mungo's.

so, yeah, there's definitely an overlap, and it seems a little confusing, but it appears that sirius was definitely arrested by a hit wizard, and not an auror. :/

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

*sighs* Oh, well. It was such a shiny theory.

I had a feeling there was some more detailed careers information somewhere, but I made the mistake of looking at Harry's careers interview.

Thanks.

[ex-stateline124.livejournal.com]

it was a really interesting theory, and would have, more importantly, made a wonderful story. it bothers me more, though, that half of the information she gives in interviews and these other "sources" of canon, directly contradicts what's in, or ends up showing up in, the books.

and the thing is, even if it wasn't frank and alice who arrested sirius, it was more than likely someone he knew. it's fairly clear that the wizarding population in britian is extremely tiny (i'd posit it wasn't much larger, even before the war), so it makes plenty of sense that everyone knows everyone.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

*nods* I think the wizarding population had been in decline for a while. We don't know much about Grindelwald, but Voldemort had obviously been picking away at his enemies for years. Add to that the likely survival rate in the MLE, and there's a very small group involved. Even if Sirius wasn't an auror, there's a fair chance that whoever arrested him was in the Order.

[copa-cetic.livejournal.com]

That thought never occured to me. That's such a fascinating idea, and it makes sense. Would Bellatrix know that Sirius wasn't a traitor-by seeing Pettigrew in Death Eater meetings or was there so much secrecy involved that even Bella wouldn't know who gave the information about the Potters?
You should write something about it, it's such a great idea.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

Aha! Yes! There had to be secrecy about Pettigrew being the spy or Snape would have known. Snape was sure that Sirius had betrayed the Potters in PoA.

In the same way, I suspect that no one knew that Snape was spying for Dumbledore (in the first war, anyway) until the Wizengamot testimony. Otherwise he would have been dead as a doornail, because Pettigrew would have known and betrayed him.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that makes sense. The more I think of it the more I suspect the Death Eaters were probably organised in cells. Some got caught, some faded back into the population, and none of them really trusted one another or knew what was going on.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

*points down* schemingreader said it. I do think Pettigrew was a secret. Bellatrix is Voldemort's weapon. His strategist, if he had one, probably wouldn't have trusted her with any sensitive information.

[rufus.livejournal.com]

mm. hmm. interesting. yes. I'll buy that for a dollar.

though I tend to think Sirius and Bellatrix loathed each other from the first moment they laid eyes on each other. But that's just me. I base this on the idea that he claims Andromeda as his favorite; I think she must have had a wild streak, too, what with running off with Ted and all, and I have a feeling Bella's tendency to casual cruelty outweighed any fellow feeling her rebeliousness might have generated. I can, in fact, see Andromeda holding Bella off of Sirius much as he would have defended Regulus, when the time came.

That said, I can also believe Bella would avenge him, if she thought he'd switched sides.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that, as children, they would have swung between hair-pulling hatred and ganging up against the rest. Regulus and Narcissa both seem to be fairly passive people, albeit with a tendency to finally explode, and I think both Sirius and Bella would have lost patience with them. I do think Sirius has a cruel streak of his own, though it's mellowed by his friends. Andromeda, though, stands by him when the rest turn away.

The Blacks do seem to have a very warped sense of family loyalty, and I think Bella would have been elated to have Sirius back, however much they'd loathed each other in the intervening years.

[missmary.livejournal.com]

Hm, very interesting idea. There is also the idea that maybe Bella was... jealous? of Sirius, for lack of a better word? This would be more likely if they hadn't gotten along as children, but what if Bella - who had clearly been on the Dark Lord's side since the beginning - was upset that her cousin, who was the 'traitor' of the family, suddenly became the most famous and most important Black - and deatheater.

I don't know if I'm explaining it properly, but maybe she wanted to remind everyone [her family, I suppose?] that she had ALWAYS been on the 'right' side, and to remind them of all she had done for Voldemort.

I just love thinking about these sort of things... its actually slightly depressing, because I doubt JKR has even thought of these things in as much detail [at least not in the beginning, I suppose]. But I'm just obsessive compulsive enough to love this sort of thing. :D

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that definitely makes sense. I can easily imagine Bella being a bit piqued. It's a sort of Black family oneupmanship.

I love this sort of informed speculation. It's the stuff you can't get away with in an essay because there's not enough supporting evidence.

[cranberry-crash.livejournal.com]

Interesting--I'd never thought of that. I'd always figured that it had something to do with the prophecy--that Bella and her pals knew that Neville was the other child that could have defeated Voldemort. From OoTP, we got that Voldemort didn't know the full prophecy. But, there was a chance that the Longbottoms would have, since it might have been their son. For all the Death Eaters knew at that point, the prophecy might have told them how to bring Voldemort back.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

I think it's very likely that Frank and Alice knew what was in the prophecy, and were also in hiding. I do think it's significant that they weren't caught until after the danger was thought to be over, and they had, presumably, moved back home.

I can only speculate on how much Bella guessed about the prophecy. There must have been very strong emotions behind her curse, though.

[sambethe.livejournal.com]

Hrm, I have thoughts on Sirius and Bellatrix but it is late and I'm having trouble composing them. So I'll try and formulate them tomorrow when I'm coherent.

Though as for Bellatrix and the Longbottoms I've generally pictured it in my mind as something of an axe to grind - perhaps something to do with their defying Voldemort three times. When I've played with scenarios in my head I thought that maybe she was tangled up in at least one of them. Meaning that in their tripping up Voldemort they also managed to foil her as well, maybe whatever it was was a pet project of hers or something for which she was responsible?

That or something of a desperate power play? If the death eaters' power was waning with Voldemort's demise they may have been looking for an opportunity to send a message that they still had power and could continue to press forward their agenda without their leader. I'm not saying it would have been a brilliant plan.

As I said, want to think more about what you wrote as I think it has interesting possibilities. I'd be intrigued enough to see where you take it in fic. The above is just me throwing out random thoughts I've had on the subject.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

I'm fascinated by those three acts of defiance - from both the Potters and the Longbottoms. I doubt we'll learn what the Longbottoms' were. We might find out more about what James and Lily did (they're also a major strand in my argument that Alice Longbottom was bloody well not a drippier version of Molly Weasley, whatever fanon may say). I'd never thought about how Bellatrix might have been affected - interesting.

I do think Bellatrix was acting out of desperation, and a desire to stop everything falling apart. I also wonder if she wanted to be caught - she seems like the sort to prefer to go down in flames, rather than scuttling about in hiding.

[sambethe.livejournal.com]

I have been meaning to finish responding to this but got distracted by work and the like.

I do think Bellatrix was acting out of desperation, and a desire to stop everything falling apart. I also wonder if she wanted to be caught - she seems like the sort to prefer to go down in flames, rather than scuttling about in hiding.

Quite possibly. I have begun to see her as kind of a slightly different version of Sirius, sort of a game of 'what if things had been different' for him. I think I see them as two sides of the same coin and the above statement echoes for me Sirius' attempts to cover who the secret keeper is or his conviction that he would die for his friends and Harry - the grand gesture, whether or not it is needed or even the right thing to do given the circumstances.

Given a scenario where they are quite alike, as children I would see them as sort of grating on one another, not quite getting along because their personalities have too much in common. I see them both as headstrong and not quite willing to compromise or cede control long enough to work together properly, even against siblings that might annoy them highly. Additionally, each would provide the other with a 'worthy' adversary rather than their sibling who might have been too easy of a target. I can imagine them in an almost never-ending cycle of taunts and pranks against one another where the scene at the Department of Mysteries becomes a more deadly round in the game between them. The way I see it, there has to be a reason she doesn't throw an Avada Kedavra at him and is instead attempting to stun him. As if the former would be too quick or easy, wouldn't give her a chance to gloat or hold it over him.

Oh, and I just need to say I hear you on the drippy Alices in fanon, they drive me nuts. Was reading a fic recently where she and Lily were the ones who who really the central force in creating those defiance scenarios rather than James & Frank. It was refreshing.

[nellie-darlin.livejournal.com]

That would be spiffy from a Really Painful and Dramatic Scene (tm) point of view. And I know you'll do it even more spiffily than I can imagine, because that's what you do.

*needs to finish Winter of our Discontent but CAN'T because of being away*

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

I'm not actually planning to write that bit, but I'm tackling Remus in the aftermath, so I want to get it all straight in my head.

It's not going anywhere, I promise.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Here via mwpp_weekly

The idea of Bella seeking revenge for Sirius is interesting (and would make for a fantastic fanfic plot), but I think it's unlikely. Sirius says in PoA that the reason Peter spent 12 years in hiding was that he was scared of the other DEs, because LV went to the Potters on Peter's direction and met his downfall there, so they considered him a traitor. So there's a good chance that Bella knew that it was Peter who sold Lily and James to Voldemort and, therefore, Sirius wasn't a DE. (Incidentally, I think Snape knew it too, but that's a whole other theory. ;D)

Even if she didn't know it was Peter specifically, it shows what the DEs thought of the person who had given lead Voldemort to the Potters, so even if Bellatrix had bought the story about it being Sirius, she would hardly have wanted to avenge the capture of someone who had supposedly contributed to Voldemort's downfall.

So I think Bellatrix wanted information about the prophesy, possibly having guessed (correctly) that there was more to it than any of the DEs or Voldemort himself had realised.

[rosemaryandrue.livejournal.com]

Oh, drat, I'd forgotten that. You're right - the others all know it was Peter (which I suppose also tells us there are no human guards in Azkaban, because you would have hoped someone would noticed all their prisoners were cursing the same dead hero)

I'll probably recycle the idea of revenge as something Remus could speculate on. All this speculation is trying to work out the backstory for a Remus-centric piece, so it's useful to have people pull it apart.

I wonder what Walburga Black knew.